Following on from Driver Geoff Lee`s Witness Statement, I will show the trail of events as they unfolded, Ged Higgins own comments and other Managers thoughts and comments on this.
Once again, I invite you to make your own mind up on this.
The following is an email I received from Geoff. This email was given to Mark Atkinson at the end of my hearing on June 30th 2009.
Re: tpe
From: Geoff Lee (geoff.lee1*******)
Sent: 04 June 2009 09:13:11
To: PEZ Webb ([email protected])
Hi Perry.
I had an assessment with Ged last week, who mentioned in passing that they were going to reduce or stop your money, cause you've not replied to any of there correspondence. There looking to sack you. Not sure on what grounds. He also mentioned that the train you last worked, had to be taken out of service , costing thousands of pounds, because of what you'd written
in the repair book. He said, there was nothing up with the train. I said that happens every day, you write in the repair book, and it comes back. No fault found. And if anyone else other than Perry had written the same thing nothing would have happen, It would have gone no further, no investigation and no enquiry.
Good Luck
Geoff
NOTES OF INVESTIGATORY INTERVIEW WITH GEOFF LEE HELD AT TANNER ROW ON 14TH JULY 2009
Present:
Ian Humphreys – Head of Performance Geoff Lee – Driver, York
Charlotte Pears – Employee Relations Manager Darren Price – Companion
At the commencement of the interview Ian made the necessary introductions
IH. Here to today as a result of an email which I believe you sent to Perry Webb. Is this
your email?
GL. Yes, to be perfectly honest I’d forgotten all about it was only when I got your letter I
had to get in touch with Perry to get a copy of it as I’d deleted it. I was a bit surprised
when I got the email as I didn’t know Perry even knew my email address but I believe
Perry had got in touch and asked everybody what had been said about him at work.
IH. What happened?
GL. I was being assessed by Ged Higgins, it wasn’t that long before I got the email from
Perry. I only sent it to Perry because I’d recently spoke to Ged. I then got the email
out the blue from Perry, but I believe Perry sent it to everyone.
IH. Geoff when was it you were assessed by Ged?
DP. In the office there’s a wall planner and if you pull out Geoff’s card that should say
when Geoff was assessed
IH. So you were having an assessment and the conversation turned to Perry Webb
GL. I believe he mentioned it, we were talking about Colin Waite
IH. Colin who
GL. Colin Waite, I believe he’s been treated bad, then Perry got brought up, who brought
it up I aren’t sure
IH. So Ged said (Ian read extract from email) (WHY NOT PRINT THE EXTRACT? UNLESS YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE)
GL. Yes well he said more than that
IH. What did he say
GL. I don’t want to say, I didn’t ask to be involved, the only person who will Ged know
that’s it come from me
CP. the only people that know about this email is Ian who’s been assigned to investigate,
Mark Atkinson who was the hearing officer and was handed a copy of the email at the
end of the hearing, myself and we obviously we had to make Paul Watson the
Operations Director aware.
GL. I deleted the email; after I got your letter I got on to Perry Webb and made it clear that
I wasn’t happy. Perry knew I was meeting you so everyone could know now. I’ve
now had my 3rd download
IH. Had the request come from Ged?
GL. He even missed his train to carry out a download on me, is this now going to be the
pattern that I can look forward to?
IH. We clearly take any allegation of bullying seriously, Ged knows nothing about this
meeting
GL. I believe Perry won’t win his appeal, you’ll go to court and may well settle out of court,
and I’m left with an unhappy manager. Look I understand that Perry was like an
irritant that you’re sick of scratching
DP Geoff wouldn’t know if Ged had made it up
GL. If it was made up I’ve no idea
Geoff asked that what he was now about to say not be recorded.
IH. Okay so you then go on to say “they’re looking to sack you” is that what Ged said or
something that you inferred
GL. No
CP. No Ged said it or no you inferred it?
GL. That’s my opinion, that’s what I said to Ged. I remember what was said at the start of
the conversation, we then moved on and I said he’s in Thailand
GL. He changed tact them
IH. The bit about anyone other than Perry Webb
GL. That’s me saying that
DP. He’s meant to be asking about his welfare
GL One thing he said was that he’s glad he’s nothing to do with the case. It’s the first
time I’d met Ged and it’s not as if we’re big mates
IH And you’ve now had 3 downloads? Are they in the past
GL. I’ve had 3 this year and I’m not even in SMD
DP. Normally you have one a month before your rules
GL. If it’s common knowledge, Perry Webb knows then Ged Higgins will know and it’s ll
get back to him
DP. Geoff is left wide open
GL. I’m on a loser there’s nothing in it for me
On 17th July 2009 Ian Humphreys received a telephone call from Geoff Lee to ask that the off
the record statement be added to the official notes. Ian asked Geoff to remind him what was
said but not recorded, and Geoff quoted the following:
Ged said to me "We are going to sack him", I responded by saying "You can't fucking say
that", Ged then said "We took the train out of service for 2 days for no reason and it cost us
£40,000" to which I responded "Well you could say that about every driver who reports a
fault".
The Above transcript of that meeting clearly has pieces missing, there is no way that the conversation went as printed above.
NOTES OF INVESTIGATORY INTERVIEW WITH GED HIGGINS HELD AT BRIDGEWATER HOUSE
FRIDAY 24 JULY 2009
Present:
Mark Atkinson – Route Driver Manager Ged Higgins – Driver Standards Manager
Charlotte Pears – Employee Relations Manager
At the commencement of the interview Mark made the necessary introductions.
MA. Here today to carry out an investigation. Don’t know whether you are aware that we
disciplined Perry Webb. At the end of that hearing I was handed an email from a driver.
We have interviewed the driver and ascertained that Perry has contacted a number of
people
GH. This has been done through the two union reps. Geoff Akerman is a personal friend of
Perry’s
MA. The email refers to an assessment you were carrying out with Geoff Lee, can you recall it
GH. I can yes it was 25th May Monday bank holiday York – Newcastle. Geoff spent the entire
journey pumping me for information on Perry Webb
MA. What did you say
GH. I said I wasn’t interested I’d never met the chap. To be honest the first I knew Perry had
been dismissed was when Marceille popped her head through the door to say Pete
Rawcliffe had been in and said Perry had been dismissed and did we know. That’s when
Dave Pierce phoned you Charlotte. In Short me and Mr Lee don’t get on well, Geoff is an
old hand driver and doesn’t like the fact that me being relatively new to the industry, just
over 6 years is now assessing him.
MA. You say you relationship hasn’t been good from the beginning
GH. Geoff thinks he’s being victimised, I did a download…….. (corrective action plan) Geoff
refused to sign it and said you’ve sacked Perry you bastards and now your coming after the
rest of us. I went outside on the phone to speak to Barry and Geoff changed his mind and
signed it
MA. Why does he feel victimised
GH. We’ve done more than the required downloads. …………We can’t get enough empty
coaching stock. He accused me and Naz of victimising him, I took the matter back to the
Driver Manager, but was told that they were to busy to deal with it and that I needed to, so I
wrote Geoff a letter. He has had had his normal download as per the plan and two empty
coach stock moves which have been split over 6 months not 6 weeks. He’s not a happy
chap.
MA. You said he’s not a good driver , if I get his file out will it reflect that
(Where did Ged Higgins say, GL is not a good driver? Missing sections from these minutes?)
GH. Yes. He’s ex SME, station over runs, speed of 73 over 70 and 28 mph approaching an
AWS magnet
MA. What about practical assessment
GH. Good- He’s safe. My role as a coach is so that we can talk about how he can be better and
as I said he’s an old hand and doesn’t like that
(So now from "not being a good driver", GL is now "Good"?)
To think, if you are a Driver and this man is your Manager, would you be happy with this type of judgement? Clearly based on assumption not hard facts.
MA. You said that when you were on the cab ride he was plugging you for information was that
purely Perry Webb or was there other topics
GH. Colin Waite, it’s a hot topic
MA. What was the conversation?
GH. He was criticising how the company has taken so long to get Colin Waite back driving. I
have to say you can only do so much to stop it, but when your in a cab there’s no where to
go. I haven’t and wouldn’t say anything to harm the company in any way.
MA. In your day to day activities at York and within your team what has been discussed about
Perry Webb
GH. Nothing, I’m not party to any discussions or emails
MA. When were you first aware that Perry had been dismissed
GH. Like I say the first I knew was when Marceille popped her head round and asked if we knew
if Perry had been dismissed. We said we didn’t know we were only the Managers. That’s
when Dave Pierce rang Charlotte who confirmed that Perry had been dismissed
MA. Some of the content of the email was very specific about the conversation that he had with
you. He alleges that you quoted that we’d stop his pay
GH. I didn’t know the company were stopping his pay. Perry Webb was at an ACTU meeting
that my wife was at and he was telling everyone what was happening to him. I don’t have
any line manager activities, Geoff Akerman told me when I was doing a simulator session
he was off work sick months ago, January I think and spent the entire 3 hour session
pumping me for information.
MA. He alleges it was a two way conversation and that you mentioned that we were stopping his
pay and going to sack him
GH. I deny that. Let me get this right I’m supposed to have said we were going to sack him and
stop his pay.
MA. It was quite detailed
GH. I spent the entire trip saying that I don’t want to talk about it. Drivers are always saying
you’ve done this and done that, it’s not just Geoff Lee they all do it
MA. They come to you
GH. They’re always coming to us pumping us for information; I always say that I can’t comment.
I don’t even know what Perry was charged with or dismissed for, I don’t know any history,
and I’ve never met the man. I can’t make any judgements when I don’t even know him
MA. You say there’s been 3 downloads have they all had issues
GH. No. I’ve done two, a standard routine and the one on the empty coaching stock last week
Saturday 11July. He might have issues with me but I don’t have any with him. I often
come in and work weekends because my wife works weekends.
MA. What’s your relationship with the others you mentioned?
GH. Recently it’s become hostile because they’re all upset and we won’t tell them anything.
You speak to any of the lads from the office. The other day Geoff Akerman came into the
offices and hurled abuse at Andy Steele, he then stormed out and called us all a bunch of
wankers. The harassment policy should apply to us all
MA. What was done about that
GH. Nothing. Frank Cauldwell, I won’t assess him, the other week he became almost physically
abusive towards me the other two lads had to step in, he threw a book at me and I’ve gone
to print to Barry over this one
MA. What about prior to all this
GH. Okay, I took Frank for a simulator session and they’re always asking what’s happening to
Perry Webb and Colin Waite. I did annoy me that Charlotte hadn’t told us that Perry had
been dismissed and I understand why. But then we would have been aware when fielding
of questions. We should have know, they seem to know every thing. I don’t have line
manager responsibilities, I’m an assessor, I don’t get involved in office politics. We do have
an individual in our office taking things back to drivers. If you want to dismiss drivers that’s
up to you
(You can read into the above highlighted in RED anyway you like, but we all know what Ged Higgin's is talking about).
MA. You’re confident that someone from the management grade is leaking info to the drivers
GH. We have an individual, if you speak to Steve Percival and Andy Steele they’ll say. He’ll tell
people when they’re due a download. I’m not telling tales out of school, I don’t say anything
anymore, all I say is I’m going to go and do a download. Driver Manager are all careful of
what they’re saying
(We all know the individual and the reason for him leaving the Management grade).
MA. Does Barry Cook Know?
GH. Barry is aware of this individual I’ve spoken to him before but his hands are tied. At the
ATCU meeting Perry Webb was stood up and asked for Leigh to be removed. Sean Brady
and Steve Trumm were there. Perry wasn’t happy to speak in front Leigh as she’s married
to a manager. Sean Brady asked her what my role was, she explained that she’s a
conductor goes to work, comes home and we don’t discuss work. They came to an
agreement that she could stay. They’ve decided to allow managers to join. Sean Brady
asked Leigh to get me to call him. I assumed it would be about Perry Webb
(The above stated by Higgin's is a total pack of lie's, ask anyone who attended that meeting).
MA. Did you know Sean Brady?
GH. No. I spoke to Steve Trumm some time ago about joining, after it became evident ASLEF
wouldn’t support me but they said they didn’t represent managers so I joined the TSSA
THIS IS THE VERY ABRUPT END OF THIS INVESTIGATORY INTERVIEW!
THE FOLLOWING ARE EXTRACTS FROM MY WITNESS STATEMENT QUESTIONING THE ABOVE STATEMENTS
1. I did however manage to obtain 2 statements from the interviews with Driver Lee (185 to 185b) and Manager Higgins (186 to 186b). This is regarding the email sent to me last June, before my hearing in relation to Driver Higgins stating that TPE were going to stop my wages and sack me.
2. Driver Lee does not agree with what Ged Higgins minutes say, even to this day, he has not received a copy of his minutes to sign off as agreed even though they were supposedly posted to his house (180). The only copy he has seen is what I emailed to him. Question is why hasn`t Driver Lee had a copy of these minutes?
3. The minutes of Manager Higgins do not make sense in places and stop abruptly, I Have been told by a York driver that is mentioned in these minutes that the investigation is still ongoing (4 months after my dismissal) and there is a further 5 pages of these minutes (See email below). Question is, especially bearing in mind the allegation, what did TPE have to hide in not supplying me with these pages and concluding this investigation, as it is still ongoing. Why hasn`t this been concluded and when will it be concluded?
Once again, I invite you to make your own mind up on this.
The following is an email I received from Geoff. This email was given to Mark Atkinson at the end of my hearing on June 30th 2009.
Re: tpe
From: Geoff Lee (geoff.lee1*******)
Sent: 04 June 2009 09:13:11
To: PEZ Webb ([email protected])
Hi Perry.
I had an assessment with Ged last week, who mentioned in passing that they were going to reduce or stop your money, cause you've not replied to any of there correspondence. There looking to sack you. Not sure on what grounds. He also mentioned that the train you last worked, had to be taken out of service , costing thousands of pounds, because of what you'd written
in the repair book. He said, there was nothing up with the train. I said that happens every day, you write in the repair book, and it comes back. No fault found. And if anyone else other than Perry had written the same thing nothing would have happen, It would have gone no further, no investigation and no enquiry.
Good Luck
Geoff
NOTES OF INVESTIGATORY INTERVIEW WITH GEOFF LEE HELD AT TANNER ROW ON 14TH JULY 2009
Present:
Ian Humphreys – Head of Performance Geoff Lee – Driver, York
Charlotte Pears – Employee Relations Manager Darren Price – Companion
At the commencement of the interview Ian made the necessary introductions
IH. Here to today as a result of an email which I believe you sent to Perry Webb. Is this
your email?
GL. Yes, to be perfectly honest I’d forgotten all about it was only when I got your letter I
had to get in touch with Perry to get a copy of it as I’d deleted it. I was a bit surprised
when I got the email as I didn’t know Perry even knew my email address but I believe
Perry had got in touch and asked everybody what had been said about him at work.
IH. What happened?
GL. I was being assessed by Ged Higgins, it wasn’t that long before I got the email from
Perry. I only sent it to Perry because I’d recently spoke to Ged. I then got the email
out the blue from Perry, but I believe Perry sent it to everyone.
IH. Geoff when was it you were assessed by Ged?
DP. In the office there’s a wall planner and if you pull out Geoff’s card that should say
when Geoff was assessed
IH. So you were having an assessment and the conversation turned to Perry Webb
GL. I believe he mentioned it, we were talking about Colin Waite
IH. Colin who
GL. Colin Waite, I believe he’s been treated bad, then Perry got brought up, who brought
it up I aren’t sure
IH. So Ged said (Ian read extract from email) (WHY NOT PRINT THE EXTRACT? UNLESS YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE)
GL. Yes well he said more than that
IH. What did he say
GL. I don’t want to say, I didn’t ask to be involved, the only person who will Ged know
that’s it come from me
CP. the only people that know about this email is Ian who’s been assigned to investigate,
Mark Atkinson who was the hearing officer and was handed a copy of the email at the
end of the hearing, myself and we obviously we had to make Paul Watson the
Operations Director aware.
GL. I deleted the email; after I got your letter I got on to Perry Webb and made it clear that
I wasn’t happy. Perry knew I was meeting you so everyone could know now. I’ve
now had my 3rd download
IH. Had the request come from Ged?
GL. He even missed his train to carry out a download on me, is this now going to be the
pattern that I can look forward to?
IH. We clearly take any allegation of bullying seriously, Ged knows nothing about this
meeting
GL. I believe Perry won’t win his appeal, you’ll go to court and may well settle out of court,
and I’m left with an unhappy manager. Look I understand that Perry was like an
irritant that you’re sick of scratching
DP Geoff wouldn’t know if Ged had made it up
GL. If it was made up I’ve no idea
Geoff asked that what he was now about to say not be recorded.
IH. Okay so you then go on to say “they’re looking to sack you” is that what Ged said or
something that you inferred
GL. No
CP. No Ged said it or no you inferred it?
GL. That’s my opinion, that’s what I said to Ged. I remember what was said at the start of
the conversation, we then moved on and I said he’s in Thailand
GL. He changed tact them
IH. The bit about anyone other than Perry Webb
GL. That’s me saying that
DP. He’s meant to be asking about his welfare
GL One thing he said was that he’s glad he’s nothing to do with the case. It’s the first
time I’d met Ged and it’s not as if we’re big mates
IH And you’ve now had 3 downloads? Are they in the past
GL. I’ve had 3 this year and I’m not even in SMD
DP. Normally you have one a month before your rules
GL. If it’s common knowledge, Perry Webb knows then Ged Higgins will know and it’s ll
get back to him
DP. Geoff is left wide open
GL. I’m on a loser there’s nothing in it for me
On 17th July 2009 Ian Humphreys received a telephone call from Geoff Lee to ask that the off
the record statement be added to the official notes. Ian asked Geoff to remind him what was
said but not recorded, and Geoff quoted the following:
Ged said to me "We are going to sack him", I responded by saying "You can't fucking say
that", Ged then said "We took the train out of service for 2 days for no reason and it cost us
£40,000" to which I responded "Well you could say that about every driver who reports a
fault".
The Above transcript of that meeting clearly has pieces missing, there is no way that the conversation went as printed above.
NOTES OF INVESTIGATORY INTERVIEW WITH GED HIGGINS HELD AT BRIDGEWATER HOUSE
FRIDAY 24 JULY 2009
Present:
Mark Atkinson – Route Driver Manager Ged Higgins – Driver Standards Manager
Charlotte Pears – Employee Relations Manager
At the commencement of the interview Mark made the necessary introductions.
MA. Here today to carry out an investigation. Don’t know whether you are aware that we
disciplined Perry Webb. At the end of that hearing I was handed an email from a driver.
We have interviewed the driver and ascertained that Perry has contacted a number of
people
GH. This has been done through the two union reps. Geoff Akerman is a personal friend of
Perry’s
MA. The email refers to an assessment you were carrying out with Geoff Lee, can you recall it
GH. I can yes it was 25th May Monday bank holiday York – Newcastle. Geoff spent the entire
journey pumping me for information on Perry Webb
MA. What did you say
GH. I said I wasn’t interested I’d never met the chap. To be honest the first I knew Perry had
been dismissed was when Marceille popped her head through the door to say Pete
Rawcliffe had been in and said Perry had been dismissed and did we know. That’s when
Dave Pierce phoned you Charlotte. In Short me and Mr Lee don’t get on well, Geoff is an
old hand driver and doesn’t like the fact that me being relatively new to the industry, just
over 6 years is now assessing him.
MA. You say you relationship hasn’t been good from the beginning
GH. Geoff thinks he’s being victimised, I did a download…….. (corrective action plan) Geoff
refused to sign it and said you’ve sacked Perry you bastards and now your coming after the
rest of us. I went outside on the phone to speak to Barry and Geoff changed his mind and
signed it
MA. Why does he feel victimised
GH. We’ve done more than the required downloads. …………We can’t get enough empty
coaching stock. He accused me and Naz of victimising him, I took the matter back to the
Driver Manager, but was told that they were to busy to deal with it and that I needed to, so I
wrote Geoff a letter. He has had had his normal download as per the plan and two empty
coach stock moves which have been split over 6 months not 6 weeks. He’s not a happy
chap.
MA. You said he’s not a good driver , if I get his file out will it reflect that
(Where did Ged Higgins say, GL is not a good driver? Missing sections from these minutes?)
GH. Yes. He’s ex SME, station over runs, speed of 73 over 70 and 28 mph approaching an
AWS magnet
MA. What about practical assessment
GH. Good- He’s safe. My role as a coach is so that we can talk about how he can be better and
as I said he’s an old hand and doesn’t like that
(So now from "not being a good driver", GL is now "Good"?)
To think, if you are a Driver and this man is your Manager, would you be happy with this type of judgement? Clearly based on assumption not hard facts.
MA. You said that when you were on the cab ride he was plugging you for information was that
purely Perry Webb or was there other topics
GH. Colin Waite, it’s a hot topic
MA. What was the conversation?
GH. He was criticising how the company has taken so long to get Colin Waite back driving. I
have to say you can only do so much to stop it, but when your in a cab there’s no where to
go. I haven’t and wouldn’t say anything to harm the company in any way.
MA. In your day to day activities at York and within your team what has been discussed about
Perry Webb
GH. Nothing, I’m not party to any discussions or emails
MA. When were you first aware that Perry had been dismissed
GH. Like I say the first I knew was when Marceille popped her head round and asked if we knew
if Perry had been dismissed. We said we didn’t know we were only the Managers. That’s
when Dave Pierce rang Charlotte who confirmed that Perry had been dismissed
MA. Some of the content of the email was very specific about the conversation that he had with
you. He alleges that you quoted that we’d stop his pay
GH. I didn’t know the company were stopping his pay. Perry Webb was at an ACTU meeting
that my wife was at and he was telling everyone what was happening to him. I don’t have
any line manager activities, Geoff Akerman told me when I was doing a simulator session
he was off work sick months ago, January I think and spent the entire 3 hour session
pumping me for information.
MA. He alleges it was a two way conversation and that you mentioned that we were stopping his
pay and going to sack him
GH. I deny that. Let me get this right I’m supposed to have said we were going to sack him and
stop his pay.
MA. It was quite detailed
GH. I spent the entire trip saying that I don’t want to talk about it. Drivers are always saying
you’ve done this and done that, it’s not just Geoff Lee they all do it
MA. They come to you
GH. They’re always coming to us pumping us for information; I always say that I can’t comment.
I don’t even know what Perry was charged with or dismissed for, I don’t know any history,
and I’ve never met the man. I can’t make any judgements when I don’t even know him
MA. You say there’s been 3 downloads have they all had issues
GH. No. I’ve done two, a standard routine and the one on the empty coaching stock last week
Saturday 11July. He might have issues with me but I don’t have any with him. I often
come in and work weekends because my wife works weekends.
MA. What’s your relationship with the others you mentioned?
GH. Recently it’s become hostile because they’re all upset and we won’t tell them anything.
You speak to any of the lads from the office. The other day Geoff Akerman came into the
offices and hurled abuse at Andy Steele, he then stormed out and called us all a bunch of
wankers. The harassment policy should apply to us all
MA. What was done about that
GH. Nothing. Frank Cauldwell, I won’t assess him, the other week he became almost physically
abusive towards me the other two lads had to step in, he threw a book at me and I’ve gone
to print to Barry over this one
MA. What about prior to all this
GH. Okay, I took Frank for a simulator session and they’re always asking what’s happening to
Perry Webb and Colin Waite. I did annoy me that Charlotte hadn’t told us that Perry had
been dismissed and I understand why. But then we would have been aware when fielding
of questions. We should have know, they seem to know every thing. I don’t have line
manager responsibilities, I’m an assessor, I don’t get involved in office politics. We do have
an individual in our office taking things back to drivers. If you want to dismiss drivers that’s
up to you
(You can read into the above highlighted in RED anyway you like, but we all know what Ged Higgin's is talking about).
MA. You’re confident that someone from the management grade is leaking info to the drivers
GH. We have an individual, if you speak to Steve Percival and Andy Steele they’ll say. He’ll tell
people when they’re due a download. I’m not telling tales out of school, I don’t say anything
anymore, all I say is I’m going to go and do a download. Driver Manager are all careful of
what they’re saying
(We all know the individual and the reason for him leaving the Management grade).
MA. Does Barry Cook Know?
GH. Barry is aware of this individual I’ve spoken to him before but his hands are tied. At the
ATCU meeting Perry Webb was stood up and asked for Leigh to be removed. Sean Brady
and Steve Trumm were there. Perry wasn’t happy to speak in front Leigh as she’s married
to a manager. Sean Brady asked her what my role was, she explained that she’s a
conductor goes to work, comes home and we don’t discuss work. They came to an
agreement that she could stay. They’ve decided to allow managers to join. Sean Brady
asked Leigh to get me to call him. I assumed it would be about Perry Webb
(The above stated by Higgin's is a total pack of lie's, ask anyone who attended that meeting).
MA. Did you know Sean Brady?
GH. No. I spoke to Steve Trumm some time ago about joining, after it became evident ASLEF
wouldn’t support me but they said they didn’t represent managers so I joined the TSSA
THIS IS THE VERY ABRUPT END OF THIS INVESTIGATORY INTERVIEW!
THE FOLLOWING ARE EXTRACTS FROM MY WITNESS STATEMENT QUESTIONING THE ABOVE STATEMENTS
1. I did however manage to obtain 2 statements from the interviews with Driver Lee (185 to 185b) and Manager Higgins (186 to 186b). This is regarding the email sent to me last June, before my hearing in relation to Driver Higgins stating that TPE were going to stop my wages and sack me.
2. Driver Lee does not agree with what Ged Higgins minutes say, even to this day, he has not received a copy of his minutes to sign off as agreed even though they were supposedly posted to his house (180). The only copy he has seen is what I emailed to him. Question is why hasn`t Driver Lee had a copy of these minutes?
3. The minutes of Manager Higgins do not make sense in places and stop abruptly, I Have been told by a York driver that is mentioned in these minutes that the investigation is still ongoing (4 months after my dismissal) and there is a further 5 pages of these minutes (See email below). Question is, especially bearing in mind the allegation, what did TPE have to hide in not supplying me with these pages and concluding this investigation, as it is still ongoing. Why hasn`t this been concluded and when will it be concluded?
_4. In Driver Lee`s initial interview (188, 12 GL), he says, “Yes, well he said more than that”. This is in reference to what Manager Higgins told him about me.
5. Driver Lee then talks about being downloaded for a third time (189, 3 GL) (checking the data recorder on a train to see if the driver is driving to the standards required), basically saying he is being victimised, to which Ian Humphreys who is chairing this meeting says (189, 4 IH), “we clearly take any allegation of bullying seriously”. Why didn`t TPE take my allegation of bullying seriously?
6. Driver Lee then says (189, 5 GL), “I believe Perry won`t win his appeal, you`ll go to court and may settle out of court, and I`m left with an unhappy manager. Look I understand that Perry was like an irritant that your sick of scratching”. This is from a colleague who I never have anything to do with at work, or out of work, but for him to state this also shows the general feeling of most train crew that I have spoken with, in that I was persistent in bringing numerous health and safety issues to the attention of TPE and this is the only reason for me to have such charges against me.
7. There is a contradiction in these minutes at (189, 12 GL) in reference to the wording of the email where it says, “their looking to sack you”. Because allegedly Driver Lee says , “That’s my opinion, that’s what I said to Ged”. But at the end of these minutes (190), On the 17th July 2009, Driver Lee spoke with Ian Humphreys and asked the following to be added to his statement, “Ged said to me, “we are going to sack him. I responded by saying you can`t fucking say that”, Ged then said, “we took the train out of service for 2 days for no reason and it cost us £40,000”, to which I responded, “Well you would say that about every driver who reports a fault”. Driver Geoff Lee confirmed to me that it was Manager Ged Higgins who said, “we are going to sack him”.
8. Please remember that TPE did stop my wages (191), this was mentioned by Manager Higgins to Driver Lee before my wages were stopped, TPE did dismiss me, therefore I have no doubt that the decision to dismiss was premeditated. The decision not to finish this investigation, which resulted in grievances submitted by drivers named by Manager Higgins is further evidence to suggest that TPE were aware of the implications that this investigation would show, namely the decision to dismiss me was pre planned, whatever my defence, I was to be found guilty and dismissed.
9. The interview notes of Manager Ged Higgins have so many irregularities.
10. The first time that Manager Higgins is questioned regards myself by the Investigatory officer Mark Atkinson is on the second page (192, 3 MA). The next time is asking this question (192, 7 MA), “In your day to day activities at York and within your team, what has been discussed about Perry Webb”?
11. Manager Higgins response (192, 8 GH) was, “Nothing, I`m not party to any discussions or emails”. Which suggests that there were discussions and email`s about myself.
12. Mark Atkinson says to Manager Higgins (192, 11 MA), “He alleges that you quoted that we`d stop his pay”.
13. This next paragraph by Manager Higgins is all over the place (192, 12 GH), firstly he denies he knew that TPE were stopping my pay, then he mentions a union meeting which his wife attended that I was present at, supposedly I was telling everyone what was happening to me. Then he says, “I don’t have any line manager activities”. Followed by, “Geoff Ackerman told me when I was doing a simulator session he was off work sick months ago, January I think and spent the entire 3 hour session pumping me for information”. This does not make any sense, parts are surely missed out. If he is referring to myself as being off work sick, then if asked in January I was not off work sick.
14. (192, 19 MA) Why would Mark Atkinson if the reason for this investigatory interview was to ascertain what was supposedly said by Manager Higgins to Driver Lee about me, now revert back to issues with Driver Lee`s driving? MA says, “You say there`s been 3 downloads have they all had issues”?
15. (193, 2 MA) Mark Atkinson continues to question about other drivers and Manager Higgins relationship with them. This was not the reason Manager Higgins was being interviewed.
16. (193, 7 GH) This is where manager Higgins says, “It did annoy me that Charlotte (Miss Pears) hadn`t told us that Perry had been dismissed and I understand why. But then we would have been aware when fielding off questions. We should have known, they seem to know everything”. Aware of what? Manager Higgins then goes on to mention an individual in his office who takes things back to drivers, and then says, “if you want to dismiss drivers that`s up to you”.
17. Manager Higgins continues talking about this individual even saying that Route Driver Barry Cook is aware who he is (193, 11 GH), but then bizarrely he then mentions, “at an ATCU (Associated Train Crew Union) meeting Perry Webb was stood up and asked for Leigh (Manager Higgins wife) to be removed”. Further stating, “Perry wasn`t happy to speak in front of Leigh as she`s married to a manager”. Let`s now go back to (192, 12 GH) where Ged said, “he was telling everyone what was happening to him”. One minute I am telling everyone and the next I am not happy to speak? One of these statements is obviously a lie. I can tell you that I did attend an ATCU meeting that Manager Higgins wife (Leigh) attended, I never stood up and asked for her to be removed and my situation was never mentioned once.
18. Finally regarding this investigatory interview, let`s look at the way this interview ends. (193, 13 GH), “so I joined the TSSA”, were the final words. As I mentioned previously, I had it on good authority there is 5 more pages of this interview from a driver who has seen them while his grievance was being investigated. I did request the findings of this investigation but TPE refused to give me them. Again, what have they to worry about if they had behaved reasonably?
5. Driver Lee then talks about being downloaded for a third time (189, 3 GL) (checking the data recorder on a train to see if the driver is driving to the standards required), basically saying he is being victimised, to which Ian Humphreys who is chairing this meeting says (189, 4 IH), “we clearly take any allegation of bullying seriously”. Why didn`t TPE take my allegation of bullying seriously?
6. Driver Lee then says (189, 5 GL), “I believe Perry won`t win his appeal, you`ll go to court and may settle out of court, and I`m left with an unhappy manager. Look I understand that Perry was like an irritant that your sick of scratching”. This is from a colleague who I never have anything to do with at work, or out of work, but for him to state this also shows the general feeling of most train crew that I have spoken with, in that I was persistent in bringing numerous health and safety issues to the attention of TPE and this is the only reason for me to have such charges against me.
7. There is a contradiction in these minutes at (189, 12 GL) in reference to the wording of the email where it says, “their looking to sack you”. Because allegedly Driver Lee says , “That’s my opinion, that’s what I said to Ged”. But at the end of these minutes (190), On the 17th July 2009, Driver Lee spoke with Ian Humphreys and asked the following to be added to his statement, “Ged said to me, “we are going to sack him. I responded by saying you can`t fucking say that”, Ged then said, “we took the train out of service for 2 days for no reason and it cost us £40,000”, to which I responded, “Well you would say that about every driver who reports a fault”. Driver Geoff Lee confirmed to me that it was Manager Ged Higgins who said, “we are going to sack him”.
8. Please remember that TPE did stop my wages (191), this was mentioned by Manager Higgins to Driver Lee before my wages were stopped, TPE did dismiss me, therefore I have no doubt that the decision to dismiss was premeditated. The decision not to finish this investigation, which resulted in grievances submitted by drivers named by Manager Higgins is further evidence to suggest that TPE were aware of the implications that this investigation would show, namely the decision to dismiss me was pre planned, whatever my defence, I was to be found guilty and dismissed.
9. The interview notes of Manager Ged Higgins have so many irregularities.
10. The first time that Manager Higgins is questioned regards myself by the Investigatory officer Mark Atkinson is on the second page (192, 3 MA). The next time is asking this question (192, 7 MA), “In your day to day activities at York and within your team, what has been discussed about Perry Webb”?
11. Manager Higgins response (192, 8 GH) was, “Nothing, I`m not party to any discussions or emails”. Which suggests that there were discussions and email`s about myself.
12. Mark Atkinson says to Manager Higgins (192, 11 MA), “He alleges that you quoted that we`d stop his pay”.
13. This next paragraph by Manager Higgins is all over the place (192, 12 GH), firstly he denies he knew that TPE were stopping my pay, then he mentions a union meeting which his wife attended that I was present at, supposedly I was telling everyone what was happening to me. Then he says, “I don’t have any line manager activities”. Followed by, “Geoff Ackerman told me when I was doing a simulator session he was off work sick months ago, January I think and spent the entire 3 hour session pumping me for information”. This does not make any sense, parts are surely missed out. If he is referring to myself as being off work sick, then if asked in January I was not off work sick.
14. (192, 19 MA) Why would Mark Atkinson if the reason for this investigatory interview was to ascertain what was supposedly said by Manager Higgins to Driver Lee about me, now revert back to issues with Driver Lee`s driving? MA says, “You say there`s been 3 downloads have they all had issues”?
15. (193, 2 MA) Mark Atkinson continues to question about other drivers and Manager Higgins relationship with them. This was not the reason Manager Higgins was being interviewed.
16. (193, 7 GH) This is where manager Higgins says, “It did annoy me that Charlotte (Miss Pears) hadn`t told us that Perry had been dismissed and I understand why. But then we would have been aware when fielding off questions. We should have known, they seem to know everything”. Aware of what? Manager Higgins then goes on to mention an individual in his office who takes things back to drivers, and then says, “if you want to dismiss drivers that`s up to you”.
17. Manager Higgins continues talking about this individual even saying that Route Driver Barry Cook is aware who he is (193, 11 GH), but then bizarrely he then mentions, “at an ATCU (Associated Train Crew Union) meeting Perry Webb was stood up and asked for Leigh (Manager Higgins wife) to be removed”. Further stating, “Perry wasn`t happy to speak in front of Leigh as she`s married to a manager”. Let`s now go back to (192, 12 GH) where Ged said, “he was telling everyone what was happening to him”. One minute I am telling everyone and the next I am not happy to speak? One of these statements is obviously a lie. I can tell you that I did attend an ATCU meeting that Manager Higgins wife (Leigh) attended, I never stood up and asked for her to be removed and my situation was never mentioned once.
18. Finally regarding this investigatory interview, let`s look at the way this interview ends. (193, 13 GH), “so I joined the TSSA”, were the final words. As I mentioned previously, I had it on good authority there is 5 more pages of this interview from a driver who has seen them while his grievance was being investigated. I did request the findings of this investigation but TPE refused to give me them. Again, what have they to worry about if they had behaved reasonably?
INVESTIGATION CONCLUSION EMAIL
_
Points to make about this conclusion, why did it take till the 28th October to come to such a paltry explanation, where is the official investigation report, anyone can write an email to fit the conclusion they want.
The only issue this conclusion makes, is that they are quite simply calling Driver Geoff Lee a liar.
I ask everyone of you that reads this, do you believe that Driver Geoff Lee would lie over such a serious matter?
COMMENTS MADE BY OPERATIONS DIRECTOR PAUL WATSON
This comment was made by Paul Watson at my appeal hearing.
“I said two people made two different statements I don’t particularly believe either of them and that’s a fact”.
The investigation conclusion clearly points out that Driver Geoff Lee is a liar, but before this investigation is concluded, Operations Director Paul Watson sits there and says they are both liars!
EXTRACTS FROM MY APPEAL HEARING ON THIS ISSUE
364. SB now questions PW on Driver Lee`s statement that he was told TPE were going to stop my wages and sack me, PW(239) admits, “Geoff Lee has said that yes. OK, because it is a fact and we have supplied it to you”. PW (240) goes on to say about Driver Lee and Manager Higgins statements, “I said two people made two different statements I don’t particularly believe either of them and that’s a fact”. Therefore he is saying that both Driver Lee and his own Manager, Ged Higgins are liars. The big question here again is, why wasn`t this investigation concluded? Why is it still ongoing to this day? A serious point was made by Driver Lee, obviously not a lie, because TPE would have jumped down hard on Driver Lee, the way the interviews were carried out to me, says it all.
365. (240) PW says, “Well we would defend it with the written records which is what we said to you as we have two written records one from each individual and its currently still under investigation as was made clear at the time in writing because the individual was unable to return his signed copy of the notes. And we did say that we would share them but the difficulty in sharing these things the individual driver has yet to sanctify the notes. So we shouldn't be sharing them but we are doing. The key point he admits is, “its currently still under investigation”, what I find hard to believe is that we made TPE aware at the end of my hearing on the 30th June 2009, Driver Lee was interviewed on the 14th July and Manager Higgins on the 24th July, the date of my appeal was the 7th September, surely this is ample time to conclude this investigation? Unless TPE are scared of the truth. But then lets face reality, TPE are hardly going to implicate themselves, so the easiest solution is ignore it, I believe this investigation should have been concluded before my appeal, due to the allegations and how relevant they were to my case.
366. (240) SB makes the very valid point. “So why did you hear the initial, why the fact the initial investigation had not been completed why did you hear the form one, why did you hear the discipline if the initial investigation hadn't been dealt with yet?
367. Another interruption by Miss Pears, “Can I just interrupt there because obviously Paul wasn’t in the hearing. That wasn’t brought to our attention till after the hearing”. And again, “No, that wasn’t brought to our attention until the decision had been relayed”.
368. Whenever this was brought to the attention of TPE, it was new evidence, I still had an appeal outstanding and as such this should have been investigated. Once again Miss Pears is quick to jump in and I would like her involvement that goes beyond that of a mere minute taker brought into question. Miss Pears was involved all the way throughout this process, the fact that she has interrupted at this appeal on issues she thought would go against me and also the fact that she was involved with Mark Atkinson at my hearing, then by what I have been told, dealing with solicitor Simon Robinson about this case before my appeal, (EMAIL EVIDENCE PROVES THIS) including her own admission that my case was a difficult one and she had to be present because she is the procedural expert and advisor, says to me that there will be clear bias from her regarding anything that is talked about with PW in my appeal hearing, to me, Miss Pears was judge, jury and executioner.
369. The last few words said on this topic were from SB who said, “Right then we go onto the next stage then, the fact that evidence had been brought forward and we have appealed it. We are sitting here now where the investigation has not even been completed yet”.
370. The response of PW was simply, “No well”. In other words, what can you do about it. Other than mention it today, what could we do?
THIS IS WHAT OPERATIONS DIRECTOR PAUL WATSON SAYS IN HIS WITNESS STATEMENT
18 Mr Webb actually raised this issue at the end of the disciplinary hearing, and as a
result the Company conducted an investigation into the matter. When the
investigating manager Ian Humphries interviewed Mr Lee on 14 July 2009, Mr
Lee stated that he made the comment regarding Mr Webb being sacked and not
his manager. Mr Lee then rang the investigator on 17 July 2009 and attempted to
withdraw his comment suggesting it was actually Mr Higgins who made the
comment. Mr Higgins was interviewed on 24 July 2009, during which he denied
making such a comment. Given that there was no independent witness, the
Company was unable to establish who had actually made the statement.
Further information will be added at a later date.
I ask everyone of you that reads this, do you believe that Driver Geoff Lee would lie over such a serious matter?
COMMENTS MADE BY OPERATIONS DIRECTOR PAUL WATSON
This comment was made by Paul Watson at my appeal hearing.
“I said two people made two different statements I don’t particularly believe either of them and that’s a fact”.
The investigation conclusion clearly points out that Driver Geoff Lee is a liar, but before this investigation is concluded, Operations Director Paul Watson sits there and says they are both liars!
EXTRACTS FROM MY APPEAL HEARING ON THIS ISSUE
364. SB now questions PW on Driver Lee`s statement that he was told TPE were going to stop my wages and sack me, PW(239) admits, “Geoff Lee has said that yes. OK, because it is a fact and we have supplied it to you”. PW (240) goes on to say about Driver Lee and Manager Higgins statements, “I said two people made two different statements I don’t particularly believe either of them and that’s a fact”. Therefore he is saying that both Driver Lee and his own Manager, Ged Higgins are liars. The big question here again is, why wasn`t this investigation concluded? Why is it still ongoing to this day? A serious point was made by Driver Lee, obviously not a lie, because TPE would have jumped down hard on Driver Lee, the way the interviews were carried out to me, says it all.
365. (240) PW says, “Well we would defend it with the written records which is what we said to you as we have two written records one from each individual and its currently still under investigation as was made clear at the time in writing because the individual was unable to return his signed copy of the notes. And we did say that we would share them but the difficulty in sharing these things the individual driver has yet to sanctify the notes. So we shouldn't be sharing them but we are doing. The key point he admits is, “its currently still under investigation”, what I find hard to believe is that we made TPE aware at the end of my hearing on the 30th June 2009, Driver Lee was interviewed on the 14th July and Manager Higgins on the 24th July, the date of my appeal was the 7th September, surely this is ample time to conclude this investigation? Unless TPE are scared of the truth. But then lets face reality, TPE are hardly going to implicate themselves, so the easiest solution is ignore it, I believe this investigation should have been concluded before my appeal, due to the allegations and how relevant they were to my case.
366. (240) SB makes the very valid point. “So why did you hear the initial, why the fact the initial investigation had not been completed why did you hear the form one, why did you hear the discipline if the initial investigation hadn't been dealt with yet?
367. Another interruption by Miss Pears, “Can I just interrupt there because obviously Paul wasn’t in the hearing. That wasn’t brought to our attention till after the hearing”. And again, “No, that wasn’t brought to our attention until the decision had been relayed”.
368. Whenever this was brought to the attention of TPE, it was new evidence, I still had an appeal outstanding and as such this should have been investigated. Once again Miss Pears is quick to jump in and I would like her involvement that goes beyond that of a mere minute taker brought into question. Miss Pears was involved all the way throughout this process, the fact that she has interrupted at this appeal on issues she thought would go against me and also the fact that she was involved with Mark Atkinson at my hearing, then by what I have been told, dealing with solicitor Simon Robinson about this case before my appeal, (EMAIL EVIDENCE PROVES THIS) including her own admission that my case was a difficult one and she had to be present because she is the procedural expert and advisor, says to me that there will be clear bias from her regarding anything that is talked about with PW in my appeal hearing, to me, Miss Pears was judge, jury and executioner.
369. The last few words said on this topic were from SB who said, “Right then we go onto the next stage then, the fact that evidence had been brought forward and we have appealed it. We are sitting here now where the investigation has not even been completed yet”.
370. The response of PW was simply, “No well”. In other words, what can you do about it. Other than mention it today, what could we do?
THIS IS WHAT OPERATIONS DIRECTOR PAUL WATSON SAYS IN HIS WITNESS STATEMENT
18 Mr Webb actually raised this issue at the end of the disciplinary hearing, and as a
result the Company conducted an investigation into the matter. When the
investigating manager Ian Humphries interviewed Mr Lee on 14 July 2009, Mr
Lee stated that he made the comment regarding Mr Webb being sacked and not
his manager. Mr Lee then rang the investigator on 17 July 2009 and attempted to
withdraw his comment suggesting it was actually Mr Higgins who made the
comment. Mr Higgins was interviewed on 24 July 2009, during which he denied
making such a comment. Given that there was no independent witness, the
Company was unable to establish who had actually made the statement.
Further information will be added at a later date.